Investing With Integrity - Mike Skillman

The time stamp on this transcript is not accurate. Sorry for the confusion.

Jeff Talarico (: 00:00

Well, welcome to the Investing with Integrity podcast. My name is Jeff Talarico. I am your host and I am honored and blessed today to have my friend, Mike Skillman as our guest. Mike is the CEO of Faith Investor Services and he's dedicated to working with the best in class investment managers to bring faith based ETF solutions to the market. He was previously the CEO of Cadence Capital Management where he oversaw all facets of the company.

and represented the firm externally with the media and investors. Now throughout Mike's career, he has served in a variety of roles related to investment management. He served as vice president for Pacific Financial Asset Management Corp. And he worked as an analyst with Pacific Mutual Life Insurance Company and was a financial analyst in the aerospace industry with Aerojet General Corporation. He is also a member of the CFA Society of Dallas, and he serves on the executive board at SMU's

He's also a member of the board of directors of Memorial Health Care System, which is a nonprofit hospital system in Southern California with over $2 billion in annual revenue. He chairs their investment committee, and he's a member of the audit and enterprise risk management committee. So, Mike, welcome to the show. How are you doing today?

Mike Skillman (: 01:18

Well, thanks so much for having me. It's my pleasure to be here and Jeff, I really appreciate being a guest on your podcast.

Jeff Talarico (: 01:24

Well, we appreciate you doing this and helping us out and get the word out about investing with integrity in our faith. So I'm gonna start off with you the same way I start off with most all of my guests. Tell us something about you that we just don't know.

Mike Skillman (: 01:38

Well, this is a fun story that a lot of people wouldn't guess, at least in my professional life. My friends know this, but I am fortunate to serve at our church and the capacity I serve in, I think is what surprises a lot of people from the business world, but I am on our safety and security team. So we have, sadly in this world, we need to have an organized security presence and keep our pastors and our guests safe at church. So I am...pretty much every Sunday I am there and part of that team and keeping our congregation safe. So, you know, hunting and firearm sports have always been sort of a passion of mine recreationally, but I can, I can blend that with faith and do something that makes a difference as well. So again, I think that surprises a few folks that in the workplace.

Jeff Talarico (: 02:27

That's pretty awesome because you're right. I didn't know that about you, but I'm glad your friends do. So in your introduction, I was pretty brief in your history and what you've done in the financial services industry. Why don't you just highlight a little bit more of some of the things that you've done and some of the companies you've been with.

Mike Skillman (: 02:31

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 02:43

Yeah, I fit really old when you mentioned all those places I'd worked. I, um, yeah, I started, I like to say I started in the aerospace industry as a financial trainee and learned very quickly that a financial person in an engineering company is probably not going to be happy for the long run. And I was, uh, fortunate to join an insurance company used to be called Pacific mutual now goes by Pacific life, uh, in Southern California.

and as an analyst and that was really my entree to the money management world. A lot of people know but many don't remember that PIMCO started out as three internal bond analysts at the insurance company and were successful by the late 80s when I was joining the insurance company and senior management thought, hey, maybe if we've done pretty well with this bond firm, we can replicate our success by seeding several equity-oriented investment firms. So that was the genesis of the

building out the investment capabilities, Pacific Life, and I was fortunate to move into that enterprise relatively quickly. And so Cadence Capital, you mentioned in my background, was one of those firms. Now the challenge for me is Cadence was started in Boston and I was living in California, so I had to move my wife and at that time, five-year-old, three-year-old, and seven-month-old daughters to Boston where we lived for 20 years. So talk about a big cultural shift. But I was very blessed to be

in that firm for many years and raised our family in the Boston area. Our focus at Cadence, first of all, secular investment firm, I spent the bulk of my career in the secular investment management side and we were catering to large institutions, predominantly large corporate pension funds. Yes, some public pension funds, some labor unions, foundations and endowments, but that really was our bread and butter, was the institutional investment management business.

Jeff Talarico (: 04:35

So no, go ahead. No, no, go ahead. Finish up.

Mike Skillman (: 04:36

Go ahead. Well, I was going to say one little thing worth mentioning is that we've managed mutual funds as part of that for years. And in the later years, as ETFs took off, we thought that there was real applicability to several of our more quantitative strategies to deliver them within the ETF wrapper. And so that was my beginning of my experience having to build out an ETF platform, you know, board of trustees, everything soup to nuts from scratch. while we were a cadence and part of Pacific life.

Jeff Talarico (: 05:09

Awesome. Glad you did that because it brought you to where you are today. And that brings up my next question. Tell us how the transition has been from doing what you do in the secular world to bringing it into your faith and doing it through a faith-based investment firm.

Mike Skillman (: 05:13

man

Mike Skillman (: 05:26

Well, first of all, it's been a great transition. And so often we all talk about, we go to church Sunday and then we have to go in the real world and there seems to be this segmentation from life versus our biblical life. And as you and I know, there really shouldn't be. It's all life is meant to honor God. And to be able to do that openly in the work setting and do something that is impactful to help investors align their portfolios has been.

extremely rewarding. We've been doing this now for about two and a half years. We started the company. So it's just been great to take that institutional investment expertise and bring it now to the broader world in a biblical sense. And I think that's one of my passions is, and I know that others in the space feel the same way, is that faith-based investing has many interpretations, depending on who you're talking to. And I think there's this historical perception that it wasn't

the realm of professional investors, performance seeking. You know, it was an either or, and I like to say it's an and. You know, you can have your faith and your performance. So, so far it's been just extremely rewarding to bring that experience to the space.

Jeff Talarico (: 06:39

Yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because it's very interesting to see all the data that has been done from so many of the companies showing that a screened portfolio, one that is screened for biblical principles, if you will, or a faith based principle, whichever it may be. The performance numbers are identical to that of an unscreened performance. And that to me is someone who only does biblically responsible investing and faith screening. It's amazing because my clients have not

Mike Skillman (: 06:58

Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 07:08

faltered one bit and I really enjoy being able to do that. So that's something cool. I'm glad you're part of this organization now, Mike, and you've come to the light side, not the dark side any longer, of the secular space. So.

Mike Skillman (: 07:14

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 07:19

That's right. Yes. And it's really refreshing to be open about your faith in a business setting. I'll remember the first kingdom advisors conference two years ago I went to was just so inspiring. First of all, you remember we're just coming out of COVID. So to be around 2000 people period was great. That probably spoke fear for some, but I think for those of us there that was, we just got so much energy from that. But to have a combination of financial topics and praise music. I mean, that was just mind blowing to me. And it was again this last year. It's really incredible.

Jeff Talarico (: 07:57

It was and Mike you and I actually met in person. We've been at the same Kingdom Advisors Conference But like you said, there's 2,000 plus people and we did not meet at those but just recently we had the National Association of Christian Financial Consultants and That conference was a lot more intimate There was just you know a handful of us there and that's where we were able to touch base and meet and I got to know You a little bit better. You met my wife and that's something that I think is really cool We've got a lot of things in common bringing faith to the workplace

Mike Skillman (: 08:13

Yes.

Jeff Talarico (: 00:00

Well, like I said, Mike, you and I, we've been at the same Kingdom Advisors Conference for the last two years. And there's just so many people there we did not personally meet, but we did just recently meet together at the National Association of Christian Financial Consultants. And that's where you got to meet my wife, I get to meet you, your business partners, and talk a little bit more about the screening that you've done on your portfolio and, and how proud you were that it was finally 100% screened the way that you were looking for and wanting to do. So when that happened in

Mike Skillman (: 00:25

Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 00:29

And they came and says, Hey, you're 100% clean now. How did you guys feel about that?

Mike Skillman (: 00:35

You know, it felt like a graduation ceremony, you know, like you've arrived at some level and you know it's something that we've been endeavoring to do with Though the fund that we manage that ticker symbols pray. So it's the FIS Christian stock fund evaluator has been the source of screening since the inception But you know in like any tool using it there were some interpretation differences about how long perhaps a company had not been engaging in certain behaviors that was different than Evaluator. And so we've just, you know, taken time and really give credit to the Evaluator folks to engage with us and explain the positioning, how the data was gathered so that we could finally, you know, bring the portfolio into full alignment. So yes, it was great that it coincided with being there at that conference with so many like-minded, um, BRI folks.

Jeff Talarico (: 01:24

That's great. So I want to go back to this podcast and what it means for me to be able to do this and just get the word out because I think more people would invest their morals, their values, their ethics, if they knew that they could. So our tagline at this podcast is wisdom over worth, principles over profit, morals over money, and integrity over it all. So when you hear that, how does that line up with what you guys are doing? at FIS.

Mike Skillman (: 01:55

Well, perfectly, I'd like to think if I had to put a single word on it. But I first of all, I love the tagline. And I really think one of the core scriptures, what we're all trying to do, Matthew 16, 26, you know, for what profit is it to a man who gains the world and loses his soul? So how we earn our money, how we invest our money and the gains we make on that matters to God. And, you know, I think that is a concept when it comes to investing.

that just a lot of people haven't been as exposed to. So I think part of what you're doing and part of what we're doing is education. And then the practical side of it that you alluded to a moment ago, there just haven't been the options to allow people to practically invest that way. And so, you know, going back to what we both said just a few moments back, you know, we are fiduciaries. We need to help clients meet their financial goals, whether that's retirement, whatever their goals may be. So...

again, it's performance, but in a faithful manner. So we want to meet both of those goals. And that was really the opportunity we saw to start Faith Investor Services. There just wasn't enough out there in terms of different faith-based options. And we knew that there were faith-based investment managers who would love to bring an exchange rate of fund to market that would allow more clients to invest. They just didn't either have the background, they didn't have the patience or the desire to kind of get into what it takes to offer.

that type of a 40 act fund. And so that's really the breach that we're stepping into, you know, actively managed portfolios. There's other that focus more on passive. So we think we've differentiated ourselves a bit.

Jeff Talarico (: 03:29

So when you guys are doing research on the companies that you want in your portfolios, there are some times that a really good company is doing everything right, except maybe one or two things. And that brings up that topic of shareholder activism and what do we do with that? So even in today's world, with our screens, with all the different things that we can use to clean portfolios, I think there's still a place for a level of shareholder activism.

Mike Skillman (: 03:41

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 03:47

Yes.

Jeff Talarico (: 03:58

And do you guys partake in that as well? How does FIS differentiate themselves in that way?

Mike Skillman (: 04:04

Yes, so we have two funds. One is managed by the Knights of Columbus in accordance with the Catholic teaching, which is determined by the U.S. Council of Catholic Bishops. So the Knights of Columbus are very active in their engagement. Prey is managed by Capital Insight Partners, and they engage with management as well through writing letters, talking to investor relations departments. Most companies, you're not going to talk directly to the chief financial officer. That's just the way things work.

I think there's a real opportunity though to bind together the different firms in the faith-based arena that have a louder voice because collectively we're going to be much stronger when it comes to shareholder engagement. We can vote our proxies, we can make individual calls, but I think that's really an opportunity for us to band together. I was recently, you and I talked about in Boston, Robin John from Eventide was gracious to host a...

a handful of us leaders of the different faith-based management firms in Boston. And that's a group that is committed to, my words, expanding the pie. We're just trying to create a broader network of options for folks. And I think that scenario, we can all work together. We have common interests. We may have different investment strategies. We may even have some different interpretations of how

Biblical wisdom ends up in the portfolio, but I think we all can band together for shareholder engagement and have a much louder voice. And, you know, when just one quick comment on that, what you find from a lot of companies is there and I don't know if you've reached out to firms yourself, but the investor relations person is in many cases is a believer and they say, thank you, thank you for reaching out. We hear from the other side so much.

Jeff Talarico (: 05:31

So.

Jeff Talarico (: 05:47

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 05:49

And therefore that's got to be reflected in our annual meetings and in our policies. But when we hear from folks like yourselves, we love that. So I think that's, we think we're small, we're not going to be heard, but there are many companies out there that are just waiting for us to reach out. So sorry, I didn't mean to interrupt your next question. Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 06:10

You're fine. I love to hear your take on these things, because I'm sure the audience really wants to know that too. So many people just sit back and think that, well, I'm only one. What's it going to matter if I do something? And it truly does make a difference. It truly does impact the way things happen. I mean, because of shareholder activism, apartheid was ended. I mean, that was a huge step that most people don't know that. But

Mike Skillman (: 06:33

Exactly.

Jeff Talarico (: 06:37

It does work and I think it's something today especially needs to be introduced and reiterated time and time again. If you own an individual share in a company, use your voice. You're able to stand up and make a difference.

Mike Skillman (: 06:51

Thanks.

Exactly. And we need to all collectively exercise that together. So I think we have an even louder voice.

Jeff Talarico (: 07:01

So with that and knowing that hasn't ever changed, we're still able to do that, what do you think are some of the biggest hurdles our industry is gonna face over the next three, five, 10 years?

Mike Skillman (: 07:15

I think the hurdles to investing in a faith-based manner on the surface look like the culture is going away from us. It looks like the numbers would say there's fewer people that would identify as Christians. You watch the popular press, the corporate press or the mainstream media, whatever term you want to put on that, and you would think, well, we've got huge challenges. But I know you know this, but for the audience that may not realize this.

there is so many more people now, the movement is actually growing. I think we've got a tailwind actually versus hurdles to, um, to faith-based investing. You know, sadly it's taken companies like Disney, it's taken an in-dev and what happened with the Bud Light fiasco to really wake up a lot of, um, uh, people to say, you know, I've given the growth of passive investing. A lot of people hold the SB 500 index fund and they now smart enough and have the information more importantly have the information at their fingertips because of what's available online to say, you know, there's a lot of companies in this portfolio that are doing things I don't agree with. What can I do about that? And so it's folks like us, folks like you sitting with your clients, educating them what's possible. But you know, you're probably seeing clients coming to you and saying, you know, hey, Jeff, help me figure this out. I don't want to own things in my portfolio that don't align. And you know, I know that you are committed across your practice to be our eyes. So there may not be as many of those folks as, as maybe a more secular advisor that has, you know, some Christian clients. But, um, I think, I think we've got more tailwinds than headwinds honestly. And, and I think that's really, um, I think that's really going to help us, uh, get the word out.

Jeff Talarico (: 08:57

What I find very interesting about focusing my morals, my ethics, and focusing on this BRI trend that we are in, is even the clients that don't align with me spiritually, they trust the guidance because they've all heard of the Bible, they understand the Bible. And it's not that they're against it, they just don't want to follow someone like I do with following Christ and believing. what I believe in faith, but they trust what we do because they know that the Bible is right and that's something that they wrestle with and that's fine. I mean, I love them just like I should. I treat them with the same dignity and respect. And I even have, you know, friends at secular mutual fund companies that I've built relationships with over the years that truly understand why I do what I do and I can't use their product.

And I know that they've gone back time and time again to money managers going, Hey, can we look at creating a fund that does something like this? Because they know that this movement's here to stay. I truly believe that Mike. And I commend you guys for doing what you're doing and, and honoring our God, because that's what we're supposed to be doing. So.

Mike Skillman (: 10:05

I am.

Mike Skillman (: 10:13

You know, this is a bit this is related, but I really I look at what happened in Virginia and what happened with the uprising, if you want to call it that, of parents against what was happening largely in the schools which elected Glenn Young and I'm not here to make political commentary. But I think what was important about that, because underlying that our biblical principles or things that were going to schools that were against biblical principles, if you want to word it that way. But I think it showed that it doesn't matter what.

what letter is after your name from a political standpoint, that if you hold traditional family values dear, which you and I know are biblical principles, that there is a populist support for that is much bigger than you would realize if you're just, again, watching the network news or reading some of the particularly East Coast-based national newspapers. Well, I won't name any names. Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 11:06

Well, you're right. I mean, we've got to turn off the news. We have been indoctrinated with one story and one story only. And what we need to do for our clients is show them what truth is. And some of them believe everything that is written or put on the news. And there's more to life than that. And I think it takes a someone like you and your firm, someone like me and the many others that are doing.

this type of investing to just show truth. And as we share the truth, I think tides change. You said it a minute ago, it's a tailwind. It's not something that we're gonna be going up against. It's the momentum that we're gonna be having for the future. And that's why I truly believe that this is not just a fad. It's been around for 30 years and it's gaining more and more traction. More and more companies are coming to the party, if you will, realizing that,

The masses want this, we need to figure out a way to provide it. And I think that's a good thing all the way across the board. So.

Mike Skillman (: 12:09

Absolutely. You know, you said something that really touched on me too. This is really important to my philosophy about what we're doing is, you know, Jesus came full of grace and truth and it's a hundred percent grace and it's a hundred percent truth. And, you know, I think sometimes as Christians, you know, there's a lot of us who have talked about the truth, but they've lacked a lot of grace and the love.

that's supposed to be underlying what we do has been lost and that's turned people off. And I think that's sad because we've, we've turned people away who otherwise, as you pointed out, would be interested. So we've, we've got to have both the truth but also the grace, you know, it can't be all about grace and you do you and you know, I'm okay, you're okay either, right? We can't lose that truth, but I think it's important that we have both in this conversation because clearly some of the principles around abortion and traditional family values can, can be a lightning rod. And you know, we,

We love all of our brothers and sisters, so we've got to get that message across in a way that gets across both elements of that.

Jeff Talarico (: 13:08

Absolutely.

Jeff Talarico (: 13:15

You know, being fortunate enough to do what I do, and I think you know this, I also pastor a church. So I'm in a little different of an environment because I totally get 100% truth, 100% grace, and we have to be willing to show that. There is this stigma that, you know, Christians, the world knows what Christians are against. I think we need to do a better job of sharing with the world what Christians are for.

Mike Skillman (: 13:21

Yes, yes.

Mike Skillman (: 13:39

Right.

Mike Skillman (: 13:45

Yes, absolutely.

Jeff Talarico (: 13:45

And that part gets left out. I think I shared this on an earlier podcast with one of our guests that my definition of hypocrisy is when you're not yourself on Sunday.

Mike Skillman (: 13:58

I love that. I've never heard that.

Jeff Talarico (: 14:00

And unfortunately, there are many that that's the truth. They go to church and they're one way and come Monday morning, they don't know that they can bring their faith to work and truly shine that light. And it's a joy to have someone like you on the show that does that. You show the world, this is who I am. And taking that stand is awesome, Mike.

Mike Skillman (: 14:05

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 14:20

Yeah, well, it's.

Well, it's a privilege to live that way now. I mean, it wasn't always that way, right? You're afraid of what people would say, or I was just trapped in that same thought of, well, okay, come Monday, now you got to put the game on and go into the combat arena. So it's, I feel blessed that I've been able to enter this business and have that transformation.

Jeff Talarico (: 14:45

That's awesome. So I'm gonna ask you the same thing I ask all my other guests too. If there was somebody dead or alive that you could just sit down and have coffee with, who is it, what would you talk about, and why?

Mike Skillman (: 14:56

Well, I mean the first person that comes to mind is Jesus, right? So that would be incredible. I mean, I don't know about you, one of the great things about The Chosen, and I know you've watched it, is it's just humanized Jesus in a way that is just said, oh, this is someone I could sit down and have coffee with, right? And for some reason, you know, in our faith upbringing, there's this thought that he wasn't fully manned when we know he was.

I'm not just saying that because we're on a faith-based discussion, but that truly would be a person I would want to sit down. And then of course, a more secular political figure, I would want to sit down with Winston Churchill. I just think the experiences that he had from the World War I into the World War II areas and all the things that he did to affect things that are frankly going on today would be an amazing conversation.

Jeff Talarico (: 15:52

You know, I think that sometimes we forget these true historical figures and what they did and what they stood for. And we either don't teach them, we don't talk about them, we ignore what they shared. And that's a downfall because I think that history is a beautiful thing. History has proven time and time again to repeat itself, much like the stock market does. It has its ups, it has its downs.

Mike Skillman (: 16:06

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 16:15

Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 16:18

It doesn't go back to zero. And if it did, well, then we're all in the same boat anyway. But we need to be willing to accept those truths and just go on with life, loving, caring for each other, and just being there to answer questions when people have them. So Winston Churchill's a great choice. I think he was one of those guys that did a lot that we don't even think about today. So that's a great choice. So what, Mike, what didn't I ask you that you want to talk about?

Mike Skillman (: 16:43

Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 16:49

You know, we really covered a lot of the subjects, especially the performance over faith, because I think that's one that I think when you're going back to something you said about challenges, so maybe it's not the way you didn't ask, but just to expand on it, I think that's our biggest challenge is communicating that this isn't about a choice of I always joke there's a marketing campaign in there. You know, it's a case for and right performance and faith, right?

Jeff Talarico (: 17:17

end.

Mike Skillman (: 17:18

and the power of and or something like that. I guess I was a better marketing person. I come up with an ad slogan, but I think that education and then we have to execute on it. And it's over rolling three and five year periods, right? It's not every quarter. We worked with, they happen to be mostly Catholic, I think institutionally, whether it's hospitals, diocese, in my old world at Cadence. And the way you track performances, you put all of your counts together and come up with a...

a single representative number, the term for that is a composite. Well, we kept our faith-based accounts in our quote composite because we knew over those rolling three and five year, they were the same. So I think that's just, you already asked about it, but I just want to emphasize it. I guess that I think that's really our message and we need to, we need to demonstrate it, but that, that investors can't have both.

Jeff Talarico (: 18:06

So what other ways, what other areas do you think we could educate? I mean, I know this, hopefully this podcast is one of them. What else should we be doing? Not, not as just individual advisors, but faith-based firms. What are, what are the things can we do to get the word out that it's okay to invest your morals and your values?

Mike Skillman (: 18:26

You know, I think one of the areas that we collectively can start doing at a much more grassroots roots level is in our church community. You know, I think all of us struggle sometimes we don't want to talk about in our church community because it appears we have a conflict of interest, right? Oh, he just wants to, or she just wants to sell us something, right? So I don't know, we talked about that at the NACFC conference. So I think, you know, but that's the place that we engage with so many people at the grassroots that can benefit from that.

That's one area that we need to have more curriculum and more discussion around at the church level, at the hand-to-hand combat, if you will, of every individual. Podcasts like this are going to be important. There can be national ads on TV by some firms that can afford that. It would be great, but I think it's going to come down to person-to-person conversations.

Jeff Talarico (: 19:21

You know, it's interesting that you have your church family that you get to deal with. How many of them know what you do and know the reason that you do it?

Mike Skillman (: 19:32

Well, hopefully a lot because I'm not afraid to talk about it. And again, I always joke, like, I'm not trying to sell a product, but it's really been rewarding the reception that people have given me and just like, wow, that's really cool. If I had to pick one response that people have is, that's amazing. I didn't know that was out there. I didn't know that was a thing. And

We're fortunate the ticker symbol we have for one of our funds is prey. And, you know, we talked about that earlier. That catches people's attention. So we tried to put everything on our website and education. And I've had a lot of friends who, you know, just don't really think much about finances. They're just in different lines of work. That's not their passion that have gone and examined it. So I'm hoping that, you know, we all have those kinds of impacts with our friends, family, and clients.

Jeff Talarico (: 20:20

What would you say to the pastor that doesn't want to buy in on this type of investing?

Mike Skillman (: 20:29

Well, I guess I would want to ask them why they don't and maybe better understand the resistance to that. It might change my answer to my question, but I think, um, I think perhaps some pastors might view that, um, you know, my pastor is talking about, uh, money this weekend in his sermon. So I guess he doesn't fall in that category, but some pastors may not want to mix, you know, money and biblical wisdom for some reason, because money is more is quoted as, you know,

quoted in the Bible probably as much or more, you know, over 2,000 times, more than any subject there is. So there really shouldn't be any resistance from a pastor to talk about this. So I guess I would just, A, ask questions and understand the resistance and B, kind of come back with scripture and talk about all the, you know, the God-breathed inspiration for what we're all doing and they really shouldn't have any resistance to that.

Jeff Talarico (: 21:01

Yes.

Jeff Talarico (: 21:23

The reason I asked that question is, and I don't know if I shared this with you or not, but when I made this decision to fully go into this type of investing, the only client that did not make the move with me was a pastor. And yeah, and I really was at a loss because I thought of all people that he would understand that. And it was interesting that he didn't.

Mike Skillman (: 21:37

Wow, no, you didn't mention that. That's incredible.

Mike Skillman (: 21:45

Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 21:50

would never give me a real reason as to why, and that's okay. But I was so taken aback, I called a gentleman at one of the other ETF firms that we do business with and asked him, have you ever dealt with this? Have you ever run into this? And it was funny because he started laughing and he goes, amazingly, yes. When they had first opened their firm and started doing this type of investing with their ETFs, he had several pastures that just couldn't grasp.

that you can leave the secular world and invest the way God would and still have the returns. So I thought that was pretty cool.

Mike Skillman (: 22:28

That I hadn't heard that. So that's, I guess we have our work cut out for us. Ha ha ha.

Jeff Talarico (: 22:32

We do. And again, it's all about communication. And that's what I hope the likes of doing this podcast and the many others that are out there and the books that have been written, that if we're able to just convey this message that stewardship is important, generosity is important. And those are things we haven't even touched on yet today. So, you know, let's talk for just a minute on the stewardship side and the generosity side. How does that play into what you guys do as a firm?

Mike Skillman (: 22:47

Yes.

Mike Skillman (: 22:52

Exactly.

Mike Skillman (: 23:01

Well, I think it just the mindset really, that's really the foundation for what we're all doing is the biblical stewardship, the concept that it truly does all belong to God. And when you have that mindset shift, then every interaction you have with your money, time, talent and treasure, all of it belongs to God. We can stewardship with all of those attributes, it really just changes the mindset. So I think...

it's really having that discussion, that education process, and that, you know, the gifts of giving and the benefits that come back from being a faithful giver are just tremendous. And, you know, there's so many good organizations like NCF that facilitate that and others that, you know, I think these are all parts of really the same play that we're in. But I think underpinning it all is that concept of stewardship, for sure.

Jeff Talarico (: 23:57

That's awesome. Because I totally agree with you. I have learned a long time ago, you can't out give God. It all belongs to him. You know, he only asked for a small percentage of us or of it to give back to him, yet you can't out give him. He continually blesses to those that are giving with the right heart. Now, remember, you can't give to get, you give because it's the right thing to do. So that's awesome. Mike.

Mike Skillman (: 24:04

Yeah, just impossible. Yeah.

Mike Skillman (: 24:19

Yep. All right. Yeah.

Jeff Talarico (: 24:25

I appreciate you taking the time today to be with us and to explain a little bit more about FIS and what you guys are doing over there. Keep up the great work, and I'm sure I'll see you again at the next Kingdom Advisors Conference, hopefully, if not before. So we really appreciate you being on the show. Thanks again for taking the time, and we look forward to seeing you again.

Mike Skillman (: 24:38

Hope.

Mike Skillman (: 24:44

I appreciate you brother. Thank you so much. It's been a privilege and I just am blessed to have gotten to know you. So thanks for the good work you're doing here. Okay.

Jeff Talarico (: 24:51

Thanks, Mike.